Discussion:
Mo ham mad The Pedophile
razldazl
2007-08-03 03:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation


Teachings of Islam

"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]


Mohammad The Pedophile

PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the
preferred sexual object.

[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."

The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character. " - Anonymous.

Muslims Practicing Islam :

Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR !"

" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to 50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17 years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " - Abdul Abdi

" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia. Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.

"Now you want to celebrate American man made system while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha / Aisha ]" -
daud7-***@public.gmane.org (Daud7)

Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has to say):

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
Iran, 1990 :

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated deserts of Arabia) :

Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?

Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?

Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger
latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was
given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of
Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)."
[Bukhari.1:268]

When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand.
Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your
brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that
it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIKH BUKHAR I7:18].

What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?"
Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was
law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than
four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.

So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha
was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH
BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .

The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that
time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost
her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as
is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was
unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as
would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].

Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the
relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148,
3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the
"mother of believers".

If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.

When did the sexual relations between Prophet Mohammad and his child
bride begin?

Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events.
Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements
regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached
puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary
to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may
indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's
hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's
Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves,
BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age
of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

It is, however, very unlikely that Muhammad would have waited for the
onset of the menses; or at most it could have been just after the 1st
drops. The evidence is necessarily indirect.

# His strong desire to "graze of the (tree) of which nothing has been
eaten before", as his other wives had not been virgins.

# Menses or fasting do not reduce Muhammad's desire and potency for sex.
His nightly rounds to his wives(lastly 12-13) did require more than
average potency.

# New additions to his harem lead to intensive sexual activity, e.g.
arrival of Maria lead to increased, initial spurt of sexual activity to
the neglect of others .

# The intervals between prayers are used for quick stands "I used to
wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he
used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it."

# Other wives try to please Muhammad by sacrificing their turns in favor
of Aisha.

# During his last fatal illness he cries: "Where will I be tomorrow?
Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking Aisha's turn.

Prophet Say: Marry Young Virgins

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have
you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't
you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir
also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so
that you might play with her and she with you?'

Silent Children :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after
consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except
after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we
know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Where sex is akin to a crime, silence is admission of your guilt. What a
corruption of "fitrah" ( human nature).

What religion condones the destruction of childhood? What are we who
daily avow our undying love for Allah to do against a system that
ruthlessly oppresses its youngest and brightest ?

* What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question
also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )

All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn
Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed
when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.

'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre.
(Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught
Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in
Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9
years old.

Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth
Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623
or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have
taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623
Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost
her hair. (Ref 1)

She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in
Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new
home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child.
And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she
had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and
similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that
time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's
own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she
moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would
have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her
first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)

What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with
Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice
(in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this
is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when
he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came
to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not
see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)

Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already
when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in
marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You
are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is
lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented
to the marriage wholeheartedly.

REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of
History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.

(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258]
[1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149]
[3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57]
[7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151]
[9.139] [9.140]

* "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her
marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.

For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar
views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?
Pedophile ?

What are the essential features of pedophilia.?

Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD.
of New York University Medical School states the essential features to
diagnose pedophilia are:

1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual
objects.

Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion.
And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair
(even as an old man).

2. Control, domination and seduction of children.

A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant
threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in
your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient,
penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]

3. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.

Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he
preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's
favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant.
[Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]
Is menses necessary indicator of sexual maturity ?

Sexual maturity is NOT PURELY RELATED TO MENSES as for some peculiar
reasons many Muslims have tried to say.

In the first place having or not having menses is not the criterion for
sexual maturity, and thus of pedophilic behaviour. We have cases here,
of abducted girls, 12, 13, 14, well past their mens, and yet preferred
by pedophiles as sexual objects.

Besides when Aisha was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of
a union with her [Sahih Bukhari 5:235]- I am sure Ayesha was not
menstruating then . Or do Arab girls menstruate at the age of 4-5 ?

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728
michael haaheim
2007-08-02 08:22:12 UTC
Permalink
By modern standards, I quite agree with the assessment of everything stated below. However, it seems to me historically slanted, as it does not account for the standard practices of other religions and cultures at that time (as I recall, this would have been the seventh century AD... marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not believe it was uncommon for wives to have been taken at much younger ages). The one notable thing here is that he did not according to the same laws that he imposed upon others.

razldazl <razldazl-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation


Teachings of Islam

"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]

Mohammad The Pedophile

PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the
preferred sexual object.

[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."

The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character. " - Anonymous.

Muslims Practicing Islam :

Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR !"

" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to 50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17 years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " - Abdul Abdi

" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia. Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.

"Now you want to celebrate American man made system while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha / Aisha ]" -
daud7-***@public.gmane.org (Daud7)

Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has to say):

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
Iran, 1990 :

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated deserts of Arabia) :

Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?

Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?

Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger
latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was
given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of
Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)."
[Bukhari.1:268]

When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand.
Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your
brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that
it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIKH BUKHAR I7:18].

What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?"
Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was
law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than
four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.

So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha
was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH
BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .

The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that
time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost
her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as
is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was
unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as
would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].

Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the
relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148,
3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the
"mother of believers".

If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.

When did the sexual relations between Prophet Mohammad and his child
bride begin?

Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events.
Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements
regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached
puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary
to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may
indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's
hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's
Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves,
BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age
of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

It is, however, very unlikely that Muhammad would have waited for the
onset of the menses; or at most it could have been just after the 1st
drops. The evidence is necessarily indirect.

# His strong desire to "graze of the (tree) of which nothing has been
eaten before", as his other wives had not been virgins.

# Menses or fasting do not reduce Muhammad's desire and potency for sex.
His nightly rounds to his wives(lastly 12-13) did require more than
average potency.

# New additions to his harem lead to intensive sexual activity, e.g.
arrival of Maria lead to increased, initial spurt of sexual activity to
the neglect of others .

# The intervals between prayers are used for quick stands "I used to
wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he
used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it."

# Other wives try to please Muhammad by sacrificing their turns in favor
of Aisha.

# During his last fatal illness he cries: "Where will I be tomorrow?
Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking Aisha's turn.

Prophet Say: Marry Young Virgins

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have
you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't
you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir
also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so
that you might play with her and she with you?'

Silent Children :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after
consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except
after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we
know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Where sex is akin to a crime, silence is admission of your guilt. What a
corruption of "fitrah" ( human nature).

What religion condones the destruction of childhood? What are we who
daily avow our undying love for Allah to do against a system that
ruthlessly oppresses its youngest and brightest ?

* What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question
also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )

All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn
Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed
when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.

'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre.
(Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught
Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in
Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9
years old.

Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth
Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623
or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have
taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623
Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost
her hair. (Ref 1)

She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in
Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new
home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child.
And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she
had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and
similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that
time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's
own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she
moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would
have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her
first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)

What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with
Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice
(in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this
is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when
he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came
to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not
see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)

Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already
when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in
marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You
are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is
lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented
to the marriage wholeheartedly.

REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of
History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.

(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258]
[1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149]
[3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57]
[7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151]
[9.139] [9.140]

* "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her
marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.

For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar
views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?
Pedophile ?

What are the essential features of pedophilia.?

Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD.
of New York University Medical School states the essential features to
diagnose pedophilia are:

1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual
objects.

Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion.
And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair
(even as an old man).

2. Control, domination and seduction of children.

A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant
threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in
your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient,
penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]

3. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.

Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he
preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's
favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant.
[Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]
Is menses necessary indicator of sexual maturity ?

Sexual maturity is NOT PURELY RELATED TO MENSES as for some peculiar
reasons many Muslims have tried to say.

In the first place having or not having menses is not the criterion for
sexual maturity, and thus of pedophilic behaviour. We have cases here,
of abducted girls, 12, 13, 14, well past their mens, and yet preferred
by pedophiles as sexual objects.

Besides when Aisha was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of
a union with her [Sahih Bukhari 5:235]- I am sure Ayesha was not
menstruating then . Or do Arab girls menstruate at the age of 4-5 ?

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728





---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
donnella whitacre
2007-08-02 17:42:09 UTC
Permalink
In the seventh century you could become betrothed at birth, they how ever waited to consumate the marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you stated that was the norm, he did enough other things with out that.His first wife was rich and kept him, i think they call that a gigalo

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
By modern standards, I quite agree with the assessment of everything stated below. However, it seems to me historically slanted, as it does not account for the standard practices of other religions and cultures at that time (as I recall, this would have been the seventh century AD... marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not believe it was uncommon for wives to have been taken at much younger ages). The one notable thing here is that he did not according to the same laws that he imposed upon others.

razldazl <razldazl-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation


Teachings of Islam

"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]

Mohammad The Pedophile

PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the
preferred sexual object.

[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."

The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character. " - Anonymous.

Muslims Practicing Islam :

Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR !"

" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to 50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17 years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " - Abdul Abdi

" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia. Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.

"Now you want to celebrate American man made system while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha / Aisha ]" -
Post by razldazl
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
Iran, 1990 :

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated deserts of Arabia) :

Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?

Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?

Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger
latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was
given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of
Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)."
[Bukhari.1:268]

When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand.
Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your
brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that
it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIKH BUKHAR I7:18].

What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?"
Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was
law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than
four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.

So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha
was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH
BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .

The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that
time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost
her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as
is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was
unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as
would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].

Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the
relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148,
3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the
"mother of believers".

If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.

When did the sexual relations between Prophet Mohammad and his child
bride begin?

Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events.
Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements
regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached
puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary
to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may
indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's
hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's
Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves,
BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age
of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

It is, however, very unlikely that Muhammad would have waited for the
onset of the menses; or at most it could have been just after the 1st
drops. The evidence is necessarily indirect.

# His strong desire to "graze of the (tree) of which nothing has been
eaten before", as his other wives had not been virgins.

# Menses or fasting do not reduce Muhammad's desire and potency for sex.
His nightly rounds to his wives(lastly 12-13) did require more than
average potency.

# New additions to his harem lead to intensive sexual activity, e.g.
arrival of Maria lead to increased, initial spurt of sexual activity to
the neglect of others .

# The intervals between prayers are used for quick stands "I used to
wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he
used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it."

# Other wives try to please Muhammad by sacrificing their turns in favor
of Aisha.

# During his last fatal illness he cries: "Where will I be tomorrow?
Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking Aisha's turn.

Prophet Say: Marry Young Virgins

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have
you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't
you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir
also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so
that you might play with her and she with you?'

Silent Children :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after
consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except
after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we
know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Where sex is akin to a crime, silence is admission of your guilt. What a
corruption of "fitrah" ( human nature).

What religion condones the destruction of childhood? What are we who
daily avow our undying love for Allah to do against a system that
ruthlessly oppresses its youngest and brightest ?

* What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question
also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )

All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn
Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed
when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.

'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre.
(Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught
Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in
Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9
years old.

Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth
Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623
or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have
taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623
Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost
her hair. (Ref 1)

She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in
Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new
home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child.
And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she
had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and
similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that
time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's
own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she
moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would
have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her
first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)

What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with
Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice
(in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this
is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when
he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came
to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not
see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)

Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already
when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in
marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You
are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is
lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented
to the marriage wholeheartedly.

REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of
History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.

(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258]
[1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149]
[3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57]
[7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151]
[9.139] [9.140]

* "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her
marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.

For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar
views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?
Pedophile ?

What are the essential features of pedophilia.?

Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD.
of New York University Medical School states the essential features to
diagnose pedophilia are:

1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual
objects.

Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion.
And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair
(even as an old man).

2. Control, domination and seduction of children.

A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant
threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in
your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient,
penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]

3. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.

Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he
preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's
favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant.
[Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]
Is menses necessary indicator of sexual maturity ?

Sexual maturity is NOT PURELY RELATED TO MENSES as for some peculiar
reasons many Muslims have tried to say.

In the first place having or not having menses is not the criterion for
sexual maturity, and thus of pedophilic behaviour. We have cases here,
of abducted girls, 12, 13, 14, well past their mens, and yet preferred
by pedophiles as sexual objects.

Besides when Aisha was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of
a union with her [Sahih Bukhari 5:235]- I am sure Ayesha was not
menstruating then . Or do Arab girls menstruate at the age of 4-5 ?

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728
michael haaheim
2007-08-03 08:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon, nor necessarily unaccepted, at the time.

donnella whitacre <screenqwen1-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote: In the seventh century you could become betrothed at birth, they how ever waited to consumate the marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you stated that was the norm, he did enough other things with out that.His first wife was rich and kept him, i think they call that a gigalo

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
By modern standards, I quite agree with the assessment of everything stated below. However, it seems to me historically slanted, as it does not account for the standard practices of other religions and cultures at that time (as I recall, this would have been the seventh century AD... marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not believe it was uncommon for wives to have been taken at much younger ages). The one notable thing here is that he did not according to the same laws that he imposed upon others.

razldazl <razldazl-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation

Teachings of Islam

"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]

Mohammad The Pedophile

PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the
preferred sexual object.

[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."

The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character. " - Anonymous.

Muslims Practicing Islam :

Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR !"

" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to 50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17 years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " - Abdul Abdi

" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia. Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.

"Now you want to celebrate American man made system while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha / Aisha ]" -
daud7-***@public.gmane.org (Daud7)

Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has to say):

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
Iran, 1990 :

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated deserts of Arabia) :

Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?

Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?

Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger
latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was
given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of
Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)."
[Bukhari.1:268]

When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand.
Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your
brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that
it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIKH BUKHAR I7:18].

What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?"
Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was
law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than
four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.

So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha
was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH
BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .

The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that
time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost
her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as
is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was
unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as
would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].

Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the
relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148,
3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the
"mother of believers".

If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.

When did the sexual relations between Prophet Mohammad and his child
bride begin?

Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events.
Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements
regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached
puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary
to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may
indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's
hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's
Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves,
BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age
of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

It is, however, very unlikely that Muhammad would have waited for the
onset of the menses; or at most it could have been just after the 1st
drops. The evidence is necessarily indirect.

# His strong desire to "graze of the (tree) of which nothing has been
eaten before", as his other wives had not been virgins.

# Menses or fasting do not reduce Muhammad's desire and potency for sex.
His nightly rounds to his wives(lastly 12-13) did require more than
average potency.

# New additions to his harem lead to intensive sexual activity, e.g.
arrival of Maria lead to increased, initial spurt of sexual activity to
the neglect of others .

# The intervals between prayers are used for quick stands "I used to
wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he
used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it."

# Other wives try to please Muhammad by sacrificing their turns in favor
of Aisha.

# During his last fatal illness he cries: "Where will I be tomorrow?
Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking Aisha's turn.

Prophet Say: Marry Young Virgins

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have
you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't
you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir
also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so
that you might play with her and she with you?'

Silent Children :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after
consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except
after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we
know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Where sex is akin to a crime, silence is admission of your guilt. What a
corruption of "fitrah" ( human nature).

What religion condones the destruction of childhood? What are we who
daily avow our undying love for Allah to do against a system that
ruthlessly oppresses its youngest and brightest ?

* What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question
also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )

All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn
Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed
when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.

'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre.
(Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught
Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in
Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9
years old.

Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth
Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623
or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have
taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623
Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost
her hair. (Ref 1)

She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in
Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new
home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child.
And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she
had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and
similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that
time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's
own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she
moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would
have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her
first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)

What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with
Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice
(in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this
is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when
he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came
to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not
see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)

Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already
when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in
marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You
are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is
lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented
to the marriage wholeheartedly.

REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of
History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.

(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258]
[1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149]
[3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57]
[7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151]
[9.139] [9.140]

* "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her
marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.

For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar
views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?
Pedophile ?

What are the essential features of pedophilia.?

Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD.
of New York University Medical School states the essential features to
diagnose pedophilia are:

1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual
objects.

Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion.
And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair
(even as an old man).

2. Control, domination and seduction of children.

A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant
threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in
your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient,
penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]

3. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.

Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he
preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's
favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant.
[Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]
Is menses necessary indicator of sexual maturity ?

Sexual maturity is NOT PURELY RELATED TO MENSES as for some peculiar
reasons many Muslims have tried to say.

In the first place having or not having menses is not the criterion for
sexual maturity, and thus of pedophilic behaviour. We have cases here,
of abducted girls, 12, 13, 14, well past their mens, and yet preferred
by pedophiles as sexual objects.

Besides when Aisha was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of
a union with her [Sahih Bukhari 5:235]- I am sure Ayesha was not
menstruating then . Or do Arab girls menstruate at the age of 4-5 ?

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728






---------------------------------
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donnella whitacre
2007-08-03 18:14:51 UTC
Permalink
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of another time. it was quite common because people died younger, they were married younger. he how ever was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty old man.

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon, nor necessarily unaccepted, at the time.

donnella whitacre <screenqwen1-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote: In the seventh century you could become betrothed at birth, they how ever waited to consumate the marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you stated that was the norm, he did enough other things with out that.His first wife was rich and kept him, i think they call that a gigalo

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
By modern standards, I quite agree with the assessment of everything stated below. However, it seems to me historically slanted, as it does not account for the standard practices of other religions and cultures at that time (as I recall, this would have been the seventh century AD... marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not believe it was uncommon for wives to have been taken at much younger ages). The one notable thing here is that he did not according to the same laws that he imposed upon others.

razldazl <razldazl-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation

Teachings of Islam

"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]

Mohammad The Pedophile

PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the
preferred sexual object.

[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."

The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character. " - Anonymous.

Muslims Practicing Islam :

Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR !"

" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to 50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17 years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " - Abdul Abdi

" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia. Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.

"Now you want to celebrate American man made system while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha / Aisha ]" -
Post by razldazl
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
Iran, 1990 :

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated deserts of Arabia) :

Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?

Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?

Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger
latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was
given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of
Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)."
[Bukhari.1:268]

When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand.
Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your
brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that
it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIKH BUKHAR I7:18].

What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?"
Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was
law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than
four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.

So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha
was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH
BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .

The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that
time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost
her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as
is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was
unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as
would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].

Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the
relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148,
3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the
"mother of believers".

If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.

When did the sexual relations between Prophet Mohammad and his child
bride begin?

Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events.
Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements
regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached
puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary
to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may
indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's
hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's
Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves,
BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age
of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

It is, however, very unlikely that Muhammad would have waited for the
onset of the menses; or at most it could have been just after the 1st
drops. The evidence is necessarily indirect.

# His strong desire to "graze of the (tree) of which nothing has been
eaten before", as his other wives had not been virgins.

# Menses or fasting do not reduce Muhammad's desire and potency for sex.
His nightly rounds to his wives(lastly 12-13) did require more than
average potency.

# New additions to his harem lead to intensive sexual activity, e.g.
arrival of Maria lead to increased, initial spurt of sexual activity to
the neglect of others .

# The intervals between prayers are used for quick stands "I used to
wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he
used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it."

# Other wives try to please Muhammad by sacrificing their turns in favor
of Aisha.

# During his last fatal illness he cries: "Where will I be tomorrow?
Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking Aisha's turn.

Prophet Say: Marry Young Virgins

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have
you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't
you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir
also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so
that you might play with her and she with you?'

Silent Children :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after
consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except
after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we
know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Where sex is akin to a crime, silence is admission of your guilt. What a
corruption of "fitrah" ( human nature).

What religion condones the destruction of childhood? What are we who
daily avow our undying love for Allah to do against a system that
ruthlessly oppresses its youngest and brightest ?

* What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question
also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )

All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn
Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed
when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.

'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre.
(Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught
Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in
Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9
years old.

Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth
Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623
or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have
taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623
Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost
her hair. (Ref 1)

She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in
Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new
home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child.
And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she
had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and
similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that
time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's
own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she
moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would
have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her
first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)

What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with
Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice
(in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this
is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when
he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came
to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not
see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)

Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already
when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in
marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You
are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is
lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented
to the marriage wholeheartedly.

REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of
History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.

(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258]
[1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149]
[3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57]
[7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151]
[9.139] [9.140]

* "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her
marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.

For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar
views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?
Pedophile ?

What are the essential features of pedophilia.?

Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD.
of New York University Medical School states the essential features to
diagnose pedophilia are:

1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual
objects.

Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion.
And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair
(even as an old man).

2. Control, domination and seduction of children.

A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant
threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in
your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient,
penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]

3. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.

Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he
preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's
favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant.
[Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]
Is menses necessary indicator of sexual maturity ?

Sexual maturity is NOT PURELY RELATED TO MENSES as for some peculiar
reasons many Muslims have tried to say.

In the first place having or not having menses is not the criterion for
sexual maturity, and thus of pedophilic behaviour. We have cases here,
of abducted girls, 12, 13, 14, well past their mens, and yet preferred
by pedophiles as sexual objects.

Besides when Aisha was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of
a union with her [Sahih Bukhari 5:235]- I am sure Ayesha was not
menstruating then . Or do Arab girls menstruate at the age of 4-5 ?

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
michael haaheim
2007-08-07 12:09:34 UTC
Permalink
He was. By definition.
In the same sense, a man who died from a viral disease
in the seventh century, died from that disease... even
though viral diseases were not recognised in medicine
of that time.
I am making no judgements. I have already said that
that was NOT a reason to condemn him, since that was a
general custom of his era.
Post by donnella whitacre
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of
another time. it was quite common because people
died younger, they were married younger. he how ever
was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in
the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty
old man.
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am
saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon, nor
necessarily unaccepted, at the time.
the seventh century you could become betrothed at
birth, they how ever waited to consumate the
marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at
least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you
stated that was the norm, he did enough other things
with out that.His first wife was rich and kept him,
i think they call that a gigalo
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated below. However, it
seems to me historically slanted, as it does not
account for the standard practices of other
religions and cultures at that time (as I recall,
this would have been the seventh century AD...
marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for
Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not
believe it was uncommon for wives to have been taken
at much younger ages). The one notable thing here is
that he did not according to the same laws that he
imposed upon others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against Allah
and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that
they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet
on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such
will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter
theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which
children are the
preferred sexual object.
Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when
she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his
death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have
felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet
Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to
me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character.
" - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found
in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in
the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR
!"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in
lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private
Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been
arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to
50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17
years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the
law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of
courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " -
Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim
world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the
name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily
basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia.
Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and
Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls
and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made system
while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a
shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of
marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood
signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when
she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our
Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way
our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK
YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha /
Aisha ]" -
Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth
volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young
as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK.
If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be
responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however
does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be
eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when
she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her
father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a
permanent place in heaven.
How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated
Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr,
Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old
Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI,
5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact
that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume
that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5
old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?
Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had
over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old
girl?
Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual
relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need
for a larger
latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round,
during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas,
"Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say
that the Prophet was
=== message truncated ===




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donnella whitacre
2007-08-07 19:31:13 UTC
Permalink
by the definitions of our time, not his, you can't go back and judge .so why bring it up when there are so many other things to condemn him for?

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote: He was. By definition.
In the same sense, a man who died from a viral disease
in the seventh century, died from that disease... even
though viral diseases were not recognised in medicine
of that time.
I am making no judgements. I have already said that
that was NOT a reason to condemn him, since that was a
general custom of his era.
Post by donnella whitacre
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of
another time. it was quite common because people
died younger, they were married younger. he how ever
was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in
the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty
old man.
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am
saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon, nor
necessarily unaccepted, at the time.
the seventh century you could become betrothed at
birth, they how ever waited to consumate the
marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at
least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you
stated that was the norm, he did enough other things
with out that.His first wife was rich and kept him,
i think they call that a gigalo
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated below. However, it
seems to me historically slanted, as it does not
account for the standard practices of other
religions and cultures at that time (as I recall,
this would have been the seventh century AD...
marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for
Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not
believe it was uncommon for wives to have been taken
at much younger ages). The one notable thing here is
that he did not according to the same laws that he
imposed upon others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against Allah
and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that
they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet
on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such
will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter
theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which
children are the
preferred sexual object.
Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when
she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his
death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have
felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet
Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to
me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character.
" - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found
in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in
the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR
!"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in
lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private
Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been
arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to
50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17
years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the
law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of
courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " -
Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim
world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the
name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily
basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia.
Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and
Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls
and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made system
while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a
shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of
marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood
signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when
she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our
Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way
our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK
YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha /
Aisha ]" -
Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth
volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young
as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK.
If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be
responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however
does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be
eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when
she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her
father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a
permanent place in heaven.
How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated
Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr,
Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old
Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI,
5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact
that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume
that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5
old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?
Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had
over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old
girl?
Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual
relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need
for a larger
latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round,
during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas,
"Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say
that the Prophet was
=== message truncated ===

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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
michael haaheim
2007-08-08 08:34:23 UTC
Permalink
So, a victim of Black Death was not a victim of
viral/bacteriological disease, since such modern
definitions did not exist back then?
As I said, I am not using that as a judgement. In
fact, I stated in my original argument that his
Pedophilia could not be used in a judgement against
him given the norms of society at the time. I mention
it as a response to others.
Post by donnella whitacre
by the definitions of our time, not his, you can't
go back and judge .so why bring it up when there are
so many other things to condemn him for?
He was. By definition.
In the same sense, a man who died from a viral
disease
in the seventh century, died from that disease...
even
though viral diseases were not recognised in
medicine
of that time.
I am making no judgements. I have already said that
that was NOT a reason to condemn him, since that was
a
general custom of his era.
Post by donnella whitacre
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of
another time. it was quite common because people
died younger, they were married younger. he how
ever
Post by donnella whitacre
was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in
the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty
old man.
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am
saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon,
nor
Post by donnella whitacre
necessarily unaccepted, at the time.
In
Post by donnella whitacre
the seventh century you could become betrothed at
birth, they how ever waited to consumate the
marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at
least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you
stated that was the norm, he did enough other
things
Post by donnella whitacre
with out that.His first wife was rich and kept
him,
Post by donnella whitacre
i think they call that a gigalo
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated below. However, it
seems to me historically slanted, as it does not
account for the standard practices of other
religions and cultures at that time (as I recall,
this would have been the seventh century AD...
marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for
Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not
believe it was uncommon for wives to have been
taken
Post by donnella whitacre
at much younger ages). The one notable thing here
is
Post by donnella whitacre
that he did not according to the same laws that he
imposed upon others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against
Allah
Post by donnella whitacre
and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be
that
Post by donnella whitacre
they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and
feet
Post by donnella whitacre
on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such
will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter
theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in
which
Post by donnella whitacre
children are the
preferred sexual object.
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number
Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when
she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till
his
Post by donnella whitacre
death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have
felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet
Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear
to
Post by donnella whitacre
me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral
character.
Post by donnella whitacre
" - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found
in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in
the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH
YEAR
Post by donnella whitacre
!"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in
lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private
Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been
arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced
to
Post by donnella whitacre
50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least
17
Post by donnella whitacre
years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the
law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of
courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " -
Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The
Muslim
Post by donnella whitacre
world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in
the
Post by donnella whitacre
name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily
basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place,
Somalia.
Post by donnella whitacre
Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and
Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their
dolls
Post by donnella whitacre
and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made
system
Post by donnella whitacre
while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a
shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong
of
Post by donnella whitacre
marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full
feminhood
Post by donnella whitacre
signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when
she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our
Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way
our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK
YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha /
Aisha ]" -
Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth
volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as
young
Post by donnella whitacre
as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is
OK.
Post by donnella whitacre
If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be
responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl,
however
=== message truncated ===




____________________________________________________________________________________
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donnella whitacre
2007-08-08 22:19:58 UTC
Permalink
i am only going to try this one more time. people all over the world married at that age, they died at 29 and younger. they weren't pedophiles. unles you want to call a 15 year old boy an pedophile.
mohammad was a dirty old man, that is all.

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
So, a victim of Black Death was not a victim of
viral/bacteriological disease, since such modern
definitions did not exist back then?
As I said, I am not using that as a judgement. In
fact, I stated in my original argument that his
Pedophilia could not be used in a judgement against
him given the norms of society at the time. I mention
it as a response to others.
Post by donnella whitacre
by the definitions of our time, not his, you can't
go back and judge .so why bring it up when there are
so many other things to condemn him for?
He was. By definition.
In the same sense, a man who died from a viral
disease
in the seventh century, died from that disease...
even
though viral diseases were not recognised in
medicine
of that time.
I am making no judgements. I have already said that
that was NOT a reason to condemn him, since that was
a
general custom of his era.
Post by donnella whitacre
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of
another time. it was quite common because people
died younger, they were married younger. he how
ever
Post by donnella whitacre
was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in
the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty
old man.
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am
saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon,
nor
Post by donnella whitacre
necessarily unaccepted, at the time.
In
Post by donnella whitacre
the seventh century you could become betrothed at
birth, they how ever waited to consumate the
marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at
least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you
stated that was the norm, he did enough other
things
Post by donnella whitacre
with out that.His first wife was rich and kept
him,
Post by donnella whitacre
i think they call that a gigalo
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated below. However, it
seems to me historically slanted, as it does not
account for the standard practices of other
religions and cultures at that time (as I recall,
this would have been the seventh century AD...
marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for
Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not
believe it was uncommon for wives to have been
taken
Post by donnella whitacre
at much younger ages). The one notable thing here
is
Post by donnella whitacre
that he did not according to the same laws that he
imposed upon others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against
Allah
Post by donnella whitacre
and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be
that
Post by donnella whitacre
they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and
feet
Post by donnella whitacre
on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such
will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter
theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in
which
Post by donnella whitacre
children are the
preferred sexual object.
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number
Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when
she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till
his
Post by donnella whitacre
death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have
felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet
Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear
to
Post by donnella whitacre
me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral
character.
Post by donnella whitacre
" - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found
in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in
the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH
YEAR
Post by donnella whitacre
!"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in
lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private
Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been
arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced
to
Post by donnella whitacre
50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least
17
Post by donnella whitacre
years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the
law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of
courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " -
Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The
Muslim
Post by donnella whitacre
world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in
the
Post by donnella whitacre
name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily
basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place,
Somalia.
Post by donnella whitacre
Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and
Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their
dolls
Post by donnella whitacre
and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made
system
Post by donnella whitacre
while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a
shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong
of
Post by donnella whitacre
marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full
feminhood
Post by donnella whitacre
signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when
she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our
Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way
our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK
YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha /
Aisha ]" -
Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth
volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as
young
Post by donnella whitacre
as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is
OK.
Post by donnella whitacre
If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be
responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl,
however
=== message truncated ===

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
michael haaheim
2007-08-10 09:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Mohammad was not a 15 year old boy at the time. However, a VERY literal adherence to the definition of the roots of the word would conclude that a the 15 year old would be a pedophile. Consummating the marriage with a girl of age 9 would qualify even a looser definition of pedophile, as the girl would not be sexually mature, whereas the 15 year old boy would.
But, again, I agree... his pedophilia should not be taken as grounds for adverse judgment, taking into account the norms of the time (pedophilia was common, and reasonably accepted practice).
Note: I have never said that people at the time would have called him a pedophile. However, that does not change the fact that he was... any more than the fact that virii and bacteria were unknown at the time of the Black Plague would change the fact that the people died from a viral/bacteriological (sorry, I don't remeber which it is) disease.


donnella whitacre <screenqwen1-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote: i am only going to try this one more time. people all over the world married at that age, they died at 29 and younger. they weren't pedophiles. unles you want to call a 15 year old boy an pedophile.
mohammad was a dirty old man, that is all.

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
So, a victim of Black Death was not a victim of
viral/bacteriological disease, since such modern
definitions did not exist back then?
As I said, I am not using that as a judgement. In
fact, I stated in my original argument that his
Pedophilia could not be used in a judgement against
him given the norms of society at the time. I mention
it as a response to others.
Post by donnella whitacre
by the definitions of our time, not his, you can't
go back and judge .so why bring it up when there are
so many other things to condemn him for?
He was. By definition.
In the same sense, a man who died from a viral
disease
in the seventh century, died from that disease...
even
though viral diseases were not recognised in
medicine
of that time.
I am making no judgements. I have already said that
that was NOT a reason to condemn him, since that was
a
general custom of his era.
Post by donnella whitacre
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of
another time. it was quite common because people
died younger, they were married younger. he how
ever
Post by donnella whitacre
was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in
the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty
old man.
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am
saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon,
nor
Post by donnella whitacre
necessarily unaccepted, at the time.
In
Post by donnella whitacre
the seventh century you could become betrothed at
birth, they how ever waited to consumate the
marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at
least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you
stated that was the norm, he did enough other
things
Post by donnella whitacre
with out that.His first wife was rich and kept
him,
Post by donnella whitacre
i think they call that a gigalo
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated below. However, it
seems to me historically slanted, as it does not
account for the standard practices of other
religions and cultures at that time (as I recall,
this would have been the seventh century AD...
marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for
Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not
believe it was uncommon for wives to have been
taken
Post by donnella whitacre
at much younger ages). The one notable thing here
is
Post by donnella whitacre
that he did not according to the same laws that he
imposed upon others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against
Allah
Post by donnella whitacre
and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be
that
Post by donnella whitacre
they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and
feet
Post by donnella whitacre
on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such
will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter
theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in
which
Post by donnella whitacre
children are the
preferred sexual object.
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number
Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when
she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till
his
Post by donnella whitacre
death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have
felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet
Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear
to
Post by donnella whitacre
me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral
character.
Post by donnella whitacre
" - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found
in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in
the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH
YEAR
Post by donnella whitacre
!"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in
lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private
Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been
arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced
to
Post by donnella whitacre
50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least
17
Post by donnella whitacre
years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the
law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of
courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " -
Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The
Muslim
Post by donnella whitacre
world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in
the
Post by donnella whitacre
name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily
basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place,
Somalia.
Post by donnella whitacre
Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and
Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their
dolls
Post by donnella whitacre
and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made
system
Post by donnella whitacre
while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a
shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong
of
Post by donnella whitacre
marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full
feminhood
Post by donnella whitacre
signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when
she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our
Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way
our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK
YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha /
Aisha ]" -
Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth
volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as
young
Post by donnella whitacre
as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is
OK.
Post by donnella whitacre
If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be
responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl,
however
=== message truncated ===

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John M
2007-08-10 19:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Michael and others:
I find it unreasonable to harangue about somebody's psycho-pathological "name" in the 21st c.'s terms who lived in the early medieval past. What would we call an ordinary citizen who takes a BIG stone and smashes onto a human being's head to kill her? In today's terms we can 'name it' if it happens today, but we cannot judge a deed 10-20+ centuries ago when it was common and legal pastime.
Yes, pedophilia has its objective social malaises in today's society, but at the end of the 18th c. the 9 year old concubine (slavegirl) of Th. Jefferson was OK (only the French objected). The regular way of execution was to lift the prisoner by 2 strong executioners ofer a sharply pointed strong pole and smash the person with the backside down so that the pole sticks out through his chest. People gathered and cheered.
It is diluting the problem. Any negation of intermittent epistemic enrichment of human knowledge is objectionable.Turns human development backwards. Old books should be considered just that: "old books" and not applied to our 'new life' (style). No correction! Re-writing! Or writing new terms for the new world. No 'old assumption' can or should hold. Unfortunately: ALL religions abide by such old assumptions and have a terroristic hold upon the minds of billions of people (In this respect I may regard Buddhism a philosophy rather than a religion). Example: even the "male-owned female animal' grew up from the biblical times (any) into full fledged human beings with rights and power they were denied earlier.
We have to do a lot in re-inventing meanings and do it in a hostile world where the re-inventers face cruel annihilation.
John (Not the one signed as 'Dr')
----- Original Message -----
From: michael haaheim
To: PNEWS-L-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [PNEWS-L] Mo ham mad The Pedophile


Mohammad was not a 15 year old boy at the time. However, a VERY literal adherence to the definition of the roots of the word would conclude that a the 15 year old would be a pedophile. Consummating the marriage with a girl of age 9 would qualify even a looser definition of pedophile, as the girl would not be sexually mature, whereas the 15 year old boy would.
But, again, I agree... his pedophilia should not be taken as grounds for adverse judgment, taking into account the norms of the time (pedophilia was common, and reasonably accepted practice).
Note: I have never said that people at the time would have called him a pedophile. However, that does not change the fact that he was... any more than the fact that virii and bacteria were unknown at the time of the Black Plague would change the fact that the people died from a viral/bacteriological (sorry, I don't remeber which it is) disease.


donnella whitacre <screenqwen1-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote: i am only going to try this one more time. people all over the world married at that age, they died at 29 and younger. they weren't pedophiles. unles you want to call a 15 year old boy an pedophile.
mohammad was a dirty old man, that is all.

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
So, a victim of Black Death was not a victim of
viral/bacteriological disease, since such modern
definitions did not exist back then?
As I said, I am not using that as a judgement. In
fact, I stated in my original argument that his
Pedophilia could not be used in a judgement against
him given the norms of society at the time. I mention
it as a response to others.
Post by donnella whitacre
by the definitions of our time, not his, you can't
go back and judge .so why bring it up when there are
so many other things to condemn him for?
He was. By definition.
In the same sense, a man who died from a viral
disease
in the seventh century, died from that disease...
even
though viral diseases were not recognised in
medicine
of that time.
I am making no judgements. I have already said that
that was NOT a reason to condemn him, since that was
a
general custom of his era.
Post by donnella whitacre
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of
another time. it was quite common because people
died younger, they were married younger. he how
ever
Post by donnella whitacre
was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in
the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty
old man.
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am
saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon,
nor
Post by donnella whitacre
necessarily unaccepted, at the time.
In
Post by donnella whitacre
the seventh century you could become betrothed at
birth, they how ever waited to consumate the
marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at
least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you
stated that was the norm, he did enough other
things
Post by donnella whitacre
with out that.His first wife was rich and kept
him,
Post by donnella whitacre
i think they call that a gigalo
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated below. However, it
seems to me historically slanted, as it does not
account for the standard practices of other
religions and cultures at that time (as I recall,
this would have been the seventh century AD...
marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for
Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not
believe it was uncommon for wives to have been
taken
Post by donnella whitacre
at much younger ages). The one notable thing here
is
Post by donnella whitacre
that he did not according to the same laws that he
imposed upon others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against
Allah
Post by donnella whitacre
and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be
that
Post by donnella whitacre
they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and
feet
Post by donnella whitacre
on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such
will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter
theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in
which
Post by donnella whitacre
children are the
preferred sexual object.
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number
Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when
she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till
his
Post by donnella whitacre
death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have
felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet
Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear
to
Post by donnella whitacre
me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral
character.
Post by donnella whitacre
" - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found
in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in
the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH
YEAR
Post by donnella whitacre
!"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in
lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private
Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been
arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced
to
Post by donnella whitacre
50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least
17
Post by donnella whitacre
years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the
law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of
courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " -
Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The
Muslim
Post by donnella whitacre
world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in
the
Post by donnella whitacre
name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily
basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place,
Somalia.
Post by donnella whitacre
Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and
Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their
dolls
Post by donnella whitacre
and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made
system
Post by donnella whitacre
while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a
shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong
of
Post by donnella whitacre
marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full
feminhood
Post by donnella whitacre
signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when
she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our
Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way
our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK
YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha /
Aisha ]" -
Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth
volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as
young
Post by donnella whitacre
as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is
OK.
Post by donnella whitacre
If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be
responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl,
however
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________________
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http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

---------------------------------
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Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.11/944 - Release Date: 8/9/2007 2:44 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
donnella whitacre
2007-08-15 15:25:32 UTC
Permalink
number one he didn't consumate the marraige at nine. a great many people of that time were betrothed from birth. mary the mother of jesus was betrothed to joseph according to the gospels. it was common practice. i can see we arent' going any were with this because you can't understand that in those days 13 was almost middle aged. people died at 29 and younger.

John M <jamikes-***@public.gmane.org> wrote: Michael and others:
I find it unreasonable to harangue about somebody's psycho-pathological "name" in the 21st c.'s terms who lived in the early medieval past. What would we call an ordinary citizen who takes a BIG stone and smashes onto a human being's head to kill her? In today's terms we can 'name it' if it happens today, but we cannot judge a deed 10-20+ centuries ago when it was common and legal pastime.
Yes, pedophilia has its objective social malaises in today's society, but at the end of the 18th c. the 9 year old concubine (slavegirl) of Th. Jefferson was OK (only the French objected). The regular way of execution was to lift the prisoner by 2 strong executioners ofer a sharply pointed strong pole and smash the person with the backside down so that the pole sticks out through his chest. People gathered and cheered.
It is diluting the problem. Any negation of intermittent epistemic enrichment of human knowledge is objectionable.Turns human development backwards. Old books should be considered just that: "old books" and not applied to our 'new life' (style). No correction! Re-writing! Or writing new terms for the new world. No 'old assumption' can or should hold. Unfortunately: ALL religions abide by such old assumptions and have a terroristic hold upon the minds of billions of people (In this respect I may regard Buddhism a philosophy rather than a religion). Example: even the "male-owned female animal' grew up from the biblical times (any) into full fledged human beings with rights and power they were denied earlier.
We have to do a lot in re-inventing meanings and do it in a hostile world where the re-inventers face cruel annihilation.
John (Not the one signed as 'Dr')
----- Original Message -----
From: michael haaheim
To: PNEWS-L-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [PNEWS-L] Mo ham mad The Pedophile

Mohammad was not a 15 year old boy at the time. However, a VERY literal adherence to the definition of the roots of the word would conclude that a the 15 year old would be a pedophile. Consummating the marriage with a girl of age 9 would qualify even a looser definition of pedophile, as the girl would not be sexually mature, whereas the 15 year old boy would.
But, again, I agree... his pedophilia should not be taken as grounds for adverse judgment, taking into account the norms of the time (pedophilia was common, and reasonably accepted practice).
Note: I have never said that people at the time would have called him a pedophile. However, that does not change the fact that he was... any more than the fact that virii and bacteria were unknown at the time of the Black Plague would change the fact that the people died from a viral/bacteriological (sorry, I don't remeber which it is) disease.

donnella whitacre <screenqwen1-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote: i am only going to try this one more time. people all over the world married at that age, they died at 29 and younger. they weren't pedophiles. unles you want to call a 15 year old boy an pedophile.
mohammad was a dirty old man, that is all.

michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
So, a victim of Black Death was not a victim of
viral/bacteriological disease, since such modern
definitions did not exist back then?
As I said, I am not using that as a judgement. In
fact, I stated in my original argument that his
Pedophilia could not be used in a judgement against
him given the norms of society at the time. I mention
it as a response to others.
Post by donnella whitacre
by the definitions of our time, not his, you can't
go back and judge .so why bring it up when there are
so many other things to condemn him for?
He was. By definition.
In the same sense, a man who died from a viral
disease
in the seventh century, died from that disease...
even
though viral diseases were not recognised in
medicine
of that time.
I am making no judgements. I have already said that
that was NOT a reason to condemn him, since that was
a
general custom of his era.
Post by donnella whitacre
he was not. you can't judge people by the mores of
another time. it was quite common because people
died younger, they were married younger. he how
ever
Post by donnella whitacre
was an older man with a younger girl.
they could be dead by 29, they married young in
the u..s, in europe also. i would call him a dirty
old man.
Well, he WAS a pedophile... what I am
saying is that that behaviour was not uncommon,
nor
Post by donnella whitacre
necessarily unaccepted, at the time.
In
Post by donnella whitacre
the seventh century you could become betrothed at
birth, they how ever waited to consumate the
marriage at a later date than nine or thirteen, at
least the nobility did.
i wouldn't call him a pedophile, because as you
stated that was the norm, he did enough other
things
Post by donnella whitacre
with out that.His first wife was rich and kept
him,
Post by donnella whitacre
i think they call that a gigalo
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated below. However, it
seems to me historically slanted, as it does not
account for the standard practices of other
religions and cultures at that time (as I recall,
this would have been the seventh century AD...
marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for
Christians, if I recall correctly... I do not
believe it was uncommon for wives to have been
taken
Post by donnella whitacre
at much younger ages). The one notable thing here
is
Post by donnella whitacre
that he did not according to the same laws that he
imposed upon others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against
Allah
Post by donnella whitacre
and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be
that
Post by donnella whitacre
they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and
feet
Post by donnella whitacre
on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such
will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter
theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in
which
Post by donnella whitacre
children are the
preferred sexual object.
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number
Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when
she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine
years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till
his
Post by donnella whitacre
death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have
felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet
Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear
to
Post by donnella whitacre
me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral
character.
Post by donnella whitacre
" - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found
in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in
the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH
YEAR
Post by donnella whitacre
!"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in
lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private
Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been
arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced
to
Post by donnella whitacre
50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least
17
Post by donnella whitacre
years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the
law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of
courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " -
Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The
Muslim
Post by donnella whitacre
world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in
the
Post by donnella whitacre
name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily
basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place,
Somalia.
Post by donnella whitacre
Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and
Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their
dolls
Post by donnella whitacre
and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made
system
Post by donnella whitacre
while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a
shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong
of
Post by donnella whitacre
marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full
feminhood
Post by donnella whitacre
signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when
she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our
Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way
our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK
YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha /
Aisha ]" -
Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth
volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as
young
Post by donnella whitacre
as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is
OK.
Post by donnella whitacre
If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be
responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl,
however
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Groups Links
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No virus found in this incoming message.
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(RESH)
2007-08-03 15:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by michael haaheim
By modern standards, I quite agree with the assessment of everything
stated below. However, it seems to me historically slanted, as it does
not account for the standard practices of other religions and cultures
at that time (as I recall, this would have been the seventh century
AD... marriage at the age of thirteen was the NORM for Christians, if
I recall correctly... I do not believe it was uncommon for wives to
have been taken at much younger ages). The one notable thing here is
that he did not according to the same laws that he imposed upon
others.
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the
preferred sexual object.
The problem with this is exactly what Michael points out in his comments
above. Morals are constructions. They are based on custom and
feel-good traditions but they are always what someone thinks they should
be and over time it seems outrageous for anyone to disagree with - but at
another time and place it would not be. The article obviously makes the
point that it is bad - but just how bad is it? Obviously there are
reproductive objectives and fertility standands to consider, not
necessarily societal standards - as they may be different, even exact
opposites.

I find it clearly an attempt to defame by comparing one set of civil
standards with another - the other being the criteria of so-called
modernity. My idea of morals, and certainly ethics, would be considerable
different in a whole range of things only because my experiences and my
assessments do not rely on what others in my social community may think. I
believe I have a pretty lofty idea of what is ethical and I don't think
current societies are even close to being at a place where my head is at -
with regard to how we treat other species and other humans.
Post by michael haaheim
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character. " - Anonymous.
Who cares what anonymous thinks. If he thought what he thinks really
mattered he should not be anonymous. He should stand behind his views and
explain why he thinks caring for anyone is molesting them. Aisha (who in a
previous post to Donnella I inadvertently misspelled Alisha) was
apparently quite pleased with her union with Muhammad. She carried on
after his death as a Muslim and even led the Battle of Camels - which was
the first civil war in Islam. She was in the think of the battle, not so
different than Joan d'Arc in that regard. But also loyal to her man.
Anonymous has his foot in his mouth.

I have not followed the link below and do not care to after reading the
attempt in that article to fault another culture. We should concentrate of
fixing our own Western culture (and individual cultural influences)

Hank Roth
Post by michael haaheim
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728
r***@public.gmane.org
2007-08-02 16:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Re: Mo ham mad The Pedophile
Posted by: "michael haaheim" MIKKELHPANDA-***@public.gmane.org mikkelhpanda
Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:22 am (PST)
By modern standards, I quite agree with the assessment of everything stated
below. However, it seems to me historically slanted, as it does not account
for the standard practices of other religions and cultures at that time (as
I recall, this would have been the seventh century AD... marriage at the
age of thirteen was the NORM for Christians, if I recall correctly... I do
not believe it was uncommon for wives to have been taken at much younger
ages). The one notable thing here is that he did not according to the same
laws that he imposed upon others.
I can not see that as relevant Mikkelhpanda..I rather like the modern
standards that has empowered Woman's Liberation and the welfare of children
as being far more advanced that the Islamic theological apology for Mo Ham
Mad'The Pedophile'

Of course western christiandom and Judaism in the west changed over the
centuries..and neither are promoting the agendas of Mo ham mad 'The
Pedophile'.
--Ric
RBS1938-/***@public.gmane.org
michael haaheim
2007-08-07 12:29:58 UTC
Permalink
The point being that 1) we are condemning Mohammad
according to modern ethical standards that did not
apply to the reality of the time; and 2) that we are
condemning Mohammad according to a bias... not
submitting our own religious leaders of the era to
judgement according to those standards (given the
modern spat of pedophilia cases by Christian clergy,
one could readily suspect that it is NOT a recent
development).
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
Re: Mo ham mad The Pedophile
mikkelhpanda
Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:22 am (PST)
By modern standards, I quite agree with the
assessment of everything stated
below. However, it seems to me historically slanted,
as it does not account
for the standard practices of other religions and
cultures at that time (as
I recall, this would have been the seventh century
AD... marriage at the
age of thirteen was the NORM for Christians, if I
recall correctly... I do
not believe it was uncommon for wives to have been
taken at much younger
ages). The one notable thing here is that he did not
according to the same
laws that he imposed upon others.
I can not see that as relevant Mikkelhpanda..I
rather like the modern
standards that has empowered Woman's Liberation and
the welfare of children
as being far more advanced that the Islamic
theological apology for Mo Ham
Mad'The Pedophile'
Of course western christiandom and Judaism in the
west changed over the
centuries..and neither are promoting the agendas of
Mo ham mad 'The
Pedophile'.
--Ric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
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Dr John
2007-08-10 06:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Is it common knowledge that this occurs over there more than in the
Western World ? Is it more cultural, or religious ?
Post by razldazl
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation
Teachings of Islam
"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be
murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides
cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Mohammad The Pedophile
PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the
preferred sexual object.
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the
most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old
and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Montgomerry Watts states: "Muhammed seemed to have felt a SPECIAL
TENDERNESS towards children."
The Moral Standard Muslims look upto, Prophet Mohammad : " ... Sounds
like child molestation to me. It does not appear to me that the founder
of Islam was a man of peace or good moral character. " - Anonymous.
Compilation of Ishaq b. Mansur al-Kasaj, ... found in Chapters on
Marriage and Divorce, translated by Spectorsky, in the ruling that a
woman "IS OF AGE WHEN SHE HAS REACHED HER NINTH YEAR !"
" Two iraqi men, aged 28 amd 34, who live in lincoln, nebraska, married
two iraqi girls, aged 13 and 14, in a private Islamic ceremony attended
by family and friends. The two men have been arrested, charged with the
sexual assault of a child and could be sentenced to 50 years of prison
because the marriage age in nebraska is at least 17 years of age. Their
attorney argued that the men didn't know about the law and that they
were merely following their religious custom of courtship and marriage.
Do they really do such things in today's Iraq? " - Abdul Abdi
" The point I would like to make is that The Muslim world has been
exploiting young girls for quite sometime now in the name of Islam.
These are child abuse and it does occur on a daily basis throughout
Islamic world, including your birth place, Somalia. Rich Arab Muslims
have been caught on the exit ports of India and Malaysia leaving with
clueless, helpless girls clutching onto their dolls and other meager
belongings. " -Faisal Hassan.
"Now you want to celebrate American man made system while ignoring one
of the things islamic shariah APPROVES. What a shameful statement?!!.
Please note: Islamically, there is NOTHING wrong of marrying fifteen OR
LESS as long as they have period and full feminhood signs. Any women
reach the age of period can be married if and when she decided to ratify
the contract of marraige.. That was the way our Prophet peace upon him
got marry Caasha [ Ayesha ] . And that was the way our great Somali
women delivered the majority of us. I DON'T THINK YOU WILL DARE TO SAY
OUR PROPHET (PBUH) EXPLOITED ON CAASHA. [ Ayesha / Aisha ]" -
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However
he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man
penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her
subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as
one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry
the girls sister.
[...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any
father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.
Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend
and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started
dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIKH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted
no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his
dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal"
for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then
ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?
Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and
concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?
Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with
Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and
night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet
the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was
given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of
Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)."
[Bukhari.1:268]
When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand.
Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your
brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that
it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIKH BUKHAR I7:18].
What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?"
Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was
law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than
four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.
So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha
was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH
BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .
The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that
time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost
her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as
is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was
unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as
would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].
Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the
relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148,
3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the
"mother of believers".
If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.
When did the sexual relations between Prophet Mohammad and his child
bride begin?
Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events.
Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements
regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached
puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary
to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may
indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's
hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the
Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's
Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves,
BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing
with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for
'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age
of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
It is, however, very unlikely that Muhammad would have waited for the
onset of the menses; or at most it could have been just after the 1st
drops. The evidence is necessarily indirect.
# His strong desire to "graze of the (tree) of which nothing has been
eaten before", as his other wives had not been virgins.
# Menses or fasting do not reduce Muhammad's desire and potency for sex.
His nightly rounds to his wives(lastly 12-13) did require more than
average potency.
# New additions to his harem lead to intensive sexual activity, e.g.
arrival of Maria lead to increased, initial spurt of sexual activity to
the neglect of others .
# The intervals between prayers are used for quick stands "I used to
wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he
used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it."
# Other wives try to please Muhammad by sacrificing their turns in favor
of Aisha.
# During his last fatal illness he cries: "Where will I be tomorrow?
Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking Aisha's turn.
Prophet Say: Marry Young Virgins
When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have
you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't
you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir
also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so
that you might play with her and she with you?'
The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after
consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except
after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we
know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."
Where sex is akin to a crime, silence is admission of your guilt. What a
corruption of "fitrah" ( human nature).
What religion condones the destruction of childhood? What are we who
daily avow our undying love for Allah to do against a system that
ruthlessly oppresses its youngest and brightest ?
* What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question
also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )
All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn
Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed
when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.
'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre.
(Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught
Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in
Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9
years old.
Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth
Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623
or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have
taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623
Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost
her hair. (Ref 1)
She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in
Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new
home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child.
And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she
had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and
similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that
time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of
puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's
own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she
moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would
have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her
first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)
What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with
Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice
(in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this
is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when
he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came
to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not
see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)
Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already
when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in
marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You
are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is
lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented
to the marriage wholeheartedly.
REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of
History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.
(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258]
[1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149]
[3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57]
[7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151]
[9.139] [9.140]
* "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her
marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.
For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar
views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?
Pedophile ?
What are the essential features of pedophilia.?
Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD.
of New York University Medical School states the essential features to
1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual
objects.
Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion.
And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair
(even as an old man).
2. Control, domination and seduction of children.
A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant
threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in
your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient,
penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]
3. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.
Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he
preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's
favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant.
[Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]
Is menses necessary indicator of sexual maturity ?
Sexual maturity is NOT PURELY RELATED TO MENSES as for some peculiar
reasons many Muslims have tried to say.
In the first place having or not having menses is not the criterion for
sexual maturity, and thus of pedophilic behaviour. We have cases here,
of abducted girls, 12, 13, 14, well past their mens, and yet preferred
by pedophiles as sexual objects.
Besides when Aisha was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of
a union with her [Sahih Bukhari 5:235]- I am sure Ayesha was not
menstruating then . Or do Arab girls menstruate at the age of 4-5 ?
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728
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